Conversation between Education secretary Arne Duncan and John Merrow
The question was about teacher bashing, especially by judging utilizing the test.
AD “We have to look at multiple measures….Should student growth and gain be one of those? Yes, we think it should be”
CL What is missed is that the test is the only issue used to determine academic achievement as well as student growth and gain and that is a false measure. http://www.wholechildreform.com/nclbtestingnotvalid.html
The question was about the poverty issue.
AD “poverty is not an excuse, it is not destiny” AD gives an example of a success story.
CL Of course, every effort must be made to eliminate the effects of poverty on all children. With all efforts, that won't happen tomorrow and we have no time to waste.
If we have the belief that all kids respond the same to poverty, then we will believe that if one or two or 10 or 100 kids do well in a particular setting, then all others will respond the same, in the same replicated way. The trick is for a school to subtly bring in high scoring poverty kids while pushing out those who score low.
The reality is that kids are affected differently by poverty. Some have support systems that reduce or eliminate the effects of poverty while many are devastated and will learn at different rates as well as in different ways.
However, once kids enter the door as students, we must never give up on them! We must be a country that expects kids to learn faster but waits for them to learn if they are slower as they might very well be smarter than the book-learned kids that can do well on the test. The effects of poverty might slow learning in some but if we change the system to take kids from where they are, never again will poverty be used as an excuse. We must stop the cycle of poverty. We may no longer force failure upon failure on kids and then wonder why they stop attending school.
The question was about charter schools policing themselves.
AD “Do I see bad charters being phased out or closed down? Do I see folks challenging the status quo…? Yes
CL The question remained unanswered. The real question is "are those who are said to be succeeding really succeeding?" or simply doing better on the test. Is there any oversight? And what about graduation rates?
http://www.wholechildreform.com/graduationratefarce.html
The question was about to whom does he listen. i.e. Rhee vs. Ravitch
AD Secretary Duncan said he listens to all. Re: education “The battle is a country that is stagnating educationally”.
CL Although there may be some truth to stagnation, it comes from NCLB as well as Race To The Top as students are forced to be like the Stepford Kids, all in the same place at the same time. This "set up" demoralizes teachers and takes hope away from kids. When educators are locked in, stagnation is forced upon them.
The question was about who is choosing in choice? Are parents choosing or are the schools choosing?
AD “I’m more interested in empowering families”
CL Secretary Duncan didn’t indicate he knew about Indiana and most other states where schools choose by not accepting and kicking out lower scoring students. This has been a pattern for years in many schools.
Re: choice schools, Dr Howard Fuller was the superintendent who brought my innovative, fully public school into being. When he got pushed out of that position he championed for choice schools (not my view) Now when states like WI want to expand choice he went to the legislature strongly opposed to expansion, it was not for rich people
The question was about testing using scientific samples
AD “it is important as a parent, for families to understand how their child is doing … stuff is really important for understanding at the district at the state level, who is making progress. “The two ideas (teacher tests and standardized tests) are not necessarily in conflict”
CL The artificial test, given in a couple of hours, does not tell parents or anyone else how their kids are doing, only how they are scoring. The test is not an indicator of achievement! Scientific samples, or demonstrations of learning will lead to true education.
A student sees teachers 1200 hours a year, simply ask the teacher how the child does demonstrating learning. The teacher must then tell that parent specifically what the child learned, not how much homework they brought in or give them a meaningless letter grade.
The question was about how much time students should spend prepping for test
AD “Let me be clear, students need to be learning, great teachers need to be teaching…. We should be evaluating our students learning, are they mastering the knowledge, and are they mastering the content, but if you spend all your time practicing filling in bubble sheets…I think that’s ludicrous.
CL Excellent thought but not done in practice. It is clear with this statement Secretary Duncan understands that learning is different than teaching to the test. Students spend much time prepping for the test, not just filling in bubble sheets but learning content to the test. Yes Mr. Secretary, it is ludicrous.
The question was about non completion rate in college
AD “Young people going to college, not enough are actually prepared” Having 45 states raise standards is such a huge deal” “Reward…. states to make sure more and more folks are graduating”
CL It is absolutely correct that students are not ready for college. However, simply raising the bar only accomplishes more kids failing unless we wait for those who learn slower and we teach and assess in a way that is real. Raising the bar under the current system creates more failures. And failure is devastating. In life we learn from failure, in school we fail from failure and put more kids into the streets.
The question was about why common core standards better than current standards?
AD “I think they are dramatically better.” …. This is an absolute game changer” “these are not mandated.” “If a student can move through the material faster, so it’s about competency, it’s about proficiency not about seat time we should have that student accelerated.
CL It’s about competency, and proficiency? Yes absolutely right. It is about demonstrated proficiencies. But that is not what happens nor is it in the future under RTTT. Kids still take a standardized test, still pass from grade level to grade level, still use Carnegie units, still get letter grades to determine success and are still pushed into a fail system that is archaic and devastating to kids. What would happen if the afore mentioned issues were knocked down like dominoes? You’ll have to read my book to see that :-). www.WholeChildReform.com
AD “Under no child left behind so many states dummied down standards”
CL Not only standards have been dummied down, also letter grades and other testing. Why did this happen? It happened because there are only two choices under the current system. Either you pass kids with dummied down scores or you push them out of school with massive failures. What if we took kids from where they are through a system that rewarded success with each demonstrated proficiency. And if they didn’t succeed, they could try again when they were ready.
The question was about waivers
AD Waivers go only to “States that have high standards…teacher and principal support and evaluation…take on tough issues, achievement gaps, under performing schools…”
CL The testing gap is not the achievement gap and in under performing schools we don’t know where kids came from on an individual basis to determine whether or not under performing. http://www.wholechildreform.com/nclbtestingnotvalid.html
The question was about early childhood
AD “Is probably the best investment we can make…” In Chicago “We had 3 shifts going each day for access.”
CL Agreed. The amount of sitting time isn’t as important as the quality of time.
The question was about the arts
AD “We want to invest a billion dollars in that (Arts)” “under NCLB we had a narrowing of the curriculum…
CL Agreed
The question was about RTTT
AD “You saw 45 states raise standards”…States create a blueprint for reform” We have unleashed this huge amount of innovation and creativity”
CL Because academic achievement is judged by the test, the blueprint for reform will not be valid.
The question was about teacher evaluation
AD “We don’t need to test every subject, testing is just one piece of this…”
The question asked if teaching is a team sport
AD “If you go to any great school there is not one individual…..” “We have a teacher for year after year after year, for one year instruction those students are gaining two years of knowledge that is an amazing teacher.
CL If it is a team sport, how can we credit one teacher with success? Will we not pit one teacher against another thereby destroying the team?
The question was about cheating scandals?
AD Taking the pressure off one test he said “It’s not just one test” Our department has “deemphasized a particular test, we want to look at a whole range of measures, look at graduation rates, look at college going rates….”
CL However, the test is still the only way to show academic achievement. And be careful about graduation rates as so many kids will still be pushed through.
The question was about investigation in DC cheating scandals.
AD “I think it has been investigated”
CL Really?
The question was about unions
AD “Teachers should not be you check out after 6 hours and 13min”
CL Of all my years as an administrator and teacher, I found it very rare that a teacher punches out without taking work home. It is seldom that teachers leave at the bell. This is an insult!
The question was about charter schools
AD “where charter schools are very high performing, where you have 95% graduation rates and 95% of students going on to college, we want to support those schools”
CL High performing schools are based on an artificial test. What if they were judged on students proficiencies gained? What if we took kids “from where they are” to success even if they weren’t going at the same rate. And what if high school graduation could happen anytime even if kids were 95?
The original concept behind charters was innovation but they ran amuck. How about innovative schools within public school structure allowing them to be test free and develop real innovation?
Secretary Duncan has my most recent book “Saving Students From A Shattered System”. I think it would be a good read for him.
Cap Lee
www.WholeChildReform.com
Caplee@wi.rr.com
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